The Art of Laughing at Dictators | Jens Galschiøt on Art, Power and Climate Justice

İlksen Mavituna: Okay, hi. Thank you for being here and for making the journey all the way down.

Jens Galschiøt: Yes, it's been quite a journey. Our car broke down on the road, and we had a lot of trouble.

İ. M: Four days of travelling!

J. G: Yeah, yeah. But now we also have a lot of equipment with us to do the recording. We were a little afraid to come. We've been in front of the building. Normally, we're right in front of the building.

İ. M: Yeah.

J. G: But we thought, "Oh, is it possible that they'll take it away?" But it's okay.

İ. M: Yeah, it was hectic to organise. Right?

J. G: Yeah, but nobody has stopped us. So, cool. I mean, we haven't asked. We're just staying here.

İ. M: Cool, cool. Well, it's our chance that you're here and that we have this little bit of time together. You have three of your works here, right? You brought them with you. And this one is the most famous, I think – the orange one.

J. G: I have to say so.

İ. M: As far as I know, you'll also be part of the People's Climate Summit. We'll talk in more detail about your work, but let's start with art as intervention, not decoration. You've been bringing your sculptures to climate summits for many years.

J. G: Yeah, to a lot of summits all over the world, in Brazil and in Paris. Normally, we're invited to the summits to do a lot of things there.

İ. M: Invited?

J. G: Yes, because some people want us there. There are a lot of good people connected to these kinds of meetings. There are many people who really want to do something. And then there are a lot of assholes who don't want to do anything. But there are also people who want us to come and show what's going on. So we're normally invited – not here, but in many other places.

İ. M: And here, you invited yourselves.

J. G: Yes. Of course, we've asked them. We're delegates, so we haven't had any problems so far. I think it's okay.

İ. M: Sorry, let me just put my headphones on. I want to talk about the power of art. We're talking about big speeches and conferences, but what can a sculpture actually do in this kind of political space?

J. G: That's an interesting question. Artists can say a lot of things, sometimes more than you could say in a thousand words. Art is a kind of feeling that passes from one person to another without words.

This is an image of the world, but it's my image. This is how I feel the world. Sometimes I feel that I'm down here and Trump is above me. But I know that, in the real world, I'm at the top and the Third World is at the bottom, because the Third World consists of many poor countries, whereas I come from a rich country.

In a way, there's a lot of construction in art. You can interpret it in many different ways. I think that's the strongest thing about art.

This isn't a solution to the question of what we should do about climate change. There are many solutions, but I only know a few. What I'm doing is creating my own mirror, reflecting my opinion of the world, but also my own fears about it.

That's the struggle. That's the best thing about art. It stays in your brain. When you see that sculpture, you remember it forever because it's so strange.

And there's a particular phrase associated with it: "I will do everything to help you except get off your back." You can apply this to many different situations, even to your own TV station, I think. That's what art can do.

İ. M: Yeah. And I also think the COPs are a very interesting moment because people from different countries are actually sharing the same space. Perhaps the importance of words changes depending on who's speaking. When a delegate from the United States gives a speech, for example, it naturally seems more powerful.

But I think this is the right moment to reclaim equality between different sectors and different parts of the world. That's perhaps why you're always demanding this equality for the world.

J. G: I think the world, even a single person or a single workshop like mine, can contribute a lot to the discussion.

Sometimes the whole discussion about the environment becomes so enormous that people say, "I can't do anything." But in reality, you can do a lot. If one or two million people from Europe decided to come to Antalya and the surrounding area, they could make a huge difference.

A lot of people can do a lot of things simply by showing interest and becoming part of this kind of discussion, even if they're not artists.

For me, this is a funny sculpture. We always try to make it funny. It's important because there are so many serious things, and I think that's okay. But we're trying to make people laugh. If you laugh at a dictator, you take away his power. That's how we do it.

İ. M: Yeah. And what do you think? I totally agree that it's a funny one. You could call it satire, perhaps. But isn't it also part of the spectacle? Doesn't it lose some of its power the moment it reveals itself?

J. G: Yeah. No, it's really interesting. We've just installed it in the European Parliament in Strasbourg. It was invited to the Strasbourg Parliament, and images of it have travelled to every corner of the world.

I think CNN has had 80 million hits for this sculpture alone. People have used it in many strange contexts. Even Iranian terrorists used it as a kind of Lego piece, building a wall out of it and sending it to the United States.

That wasn't a good use of it, but everybody has used the symbol. So now we've created a kind of worldwide symbol of how ridiculous Trump is, and everybody laughs at him.

In a way, this has also become part of the discussion during election campaigns. There were many TV stations across America that allowed us to show this work. Americans could then say, "Oh, they're laughing at us." And I think this has contributed to Trump's downfall.

People are beginning to laugh at them. Perhaps they're ashamed. They think, "We have a president, and people are laughing at us. We have this crazy president."

So I think this kind of work can really help. And there's another thing: it's incredibly boring to report on conferences. It's just delegates going in, voting, and leaving. There's no picture, nothing visual.

But if you can create an image of what's happening inside these meetings, you can attract a lot of press attention and generate discussion. You create a mirror of what people see when they open a newspaper or watch television. In that way, you're also becoming part of the press when you do this kind of work.

İ. M: You're right. You're talking about mirrors and mirroring. I think that's the basic theme, right? To sum up, to explain your work and the different layers of meaning behind it.

J. G: I think the first thing is that, in every discussion about art, art is a connection between two people – not on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level. That's what art is about.

I'm trying to express my own view of the world. But when you see my work, you receive my perspective, combine it with your own, and take something new away with you. I think that's the great power of art, and that's what makes it different from all other forms of communication.

İ. M: Exactly. And what do you think about the gap between this emotional connection and action? How can a work of art, your work of art, at least bring people closer to taking action? Action is actually the main topic right now, and yet it's largely absent.

J. G: Yes, and this is always difficult. I don't think you can say, "If you do this and that, you can change the world." If I thought I could change the world, I'd become really, really depressed because I can't change the world.

But I can change a small part of it. That's my little stone in the water, my ripple in the water. And I think if everybody did that, the world would change very, very quickly.

Art has the possibility and the voice to speak out and to reach the public media all over the world.

I've been to Hong Kong. I have a large sculpture there called The Pillar of Shame. It brought the whole discussion about Asia and China into focus. Now China hates me, so we've had a lot of problems because of that.

But the sculpture also generated a huge public discussion. Sometimes you can create a really significant change with a sculpture. I've done that in Hong Kong.

That's not what we've done with this particular work. With this one, we've made people around the world laugh. I think that's important, too.

İ. M: Let's also talk about Freedom to Pollute. This is the work you're going to show at the People's Climate Summit, right?

J. G: Yes. It's an enormous, eight-metre-high sculpture called Freedom to Pollute, inspired by the Statue of Liberty in the United States.

We've changed the torch. Normally, there's a flame on it, but on our sculpture, there's a lot of smoke rising from the torch. We've also changed the inscription in the book that's part of the sculpture. It says: "Freedom to Pollute."

For me, this represents a discussion taking place across the Western world. In the West, we have the freedom to do everything. I have the freedom to buy a car. I have the freedom to be unemployed or employed. In Denmark, I can sometimes receive money from the state. We have all kinds of freedoms. I can say what I want and do all sorts of things.

We also demand the freedom to consume whatever we want. We want to buy whatever we want, and we don't want to take care of the world. But that's the problem.

İ. M: Yeah.

J. G: Because our freedom means another person's lack of freedom. We're putting carbon into the atmosphere, and people in Africa and other regions, including desert areas, are suffering the consequences.

İ. M: And there have been many variations of this work over the years, right?

J. G: Yes. We've installed it in many places. I think it's been about 30 years since I started making this large sculpture, and versions of it have travelled all over the world, including South Africa.

We took one to COP4 in South Africa, many, many years ago. We also had a smaller version in Rio, Brazil. We've exhibited this sculpture in many places, including Paris and Bonn.

The Statue of Liberty is shown smoking, with the message "Freedom to Pollute." This is also a funny sculpture because it's a breakdown of the idea itself. We want the freedom to pollute. We don't care about everyone else. In a way, it's a very Trump-like way of saying things.

İ. M: Whose freedom is that?

J. G: Exactly. Whose freedom is that? And I think this is one of the main discussions at this meeting.

Saudi Arabia says, "We want the freedom to sell our oil." And we say, "We want the freedom to burn that oil, release carbon into the atmosphere and drive around in big cars."

It's a completely crazy discussion, but it's one of the main discussions taking place at these kinds of meetings.

İ. M: Exactly. So this is our chance right now to take a stand and talk about freedom.

J. G: Yeah, yeah.

İ. M: Without equality, I don't think it's even possible to talk about freedom.

J. G: No, I agree. And I think it's important to talk about the role of the Western world in all this.

I come from Denmark, one of the richest countries in the world, and I think we need to talk about what we're doing. In a way, we're good countries. We're trying to reduce pollution and all that. But we're still consuming ten times more than people in Africa, perhaps even a hundred times more.

So, in a way, we're part of the crime, and we don't really acknowledge that.

İ. M: The responsibility.

J. G: Yes, I think so.

İ. M: Thank you. Thank you so much.

J. G: Okay. Thank you very much.