29 May 2005Channel4.com
The idea is to get us to drive greener vehicles. But it would not just be owners of luxury, 4x4 and sports cars in the firing line - what used to be regarded as pretty ordinary family cars could be targeted too.
This is the transcript of a discussion with Tony Vickers of the Association of British Drivers, David Begg, chairman of the Commission for Integrated Transport and Channel 4 News presenter Krishnan Guru-Murthy. Murthy: What do you think of the tax?
Vickers: I think it's utterly preposterous, although I think the price of fuel tax is too high, at least you could say the tax is a progressive tax in that how many miles you do per year reflects how much you pay in tax.
Murthy: But if people's cars pollute more, why shouldn't they pay more?
Vickers: First of all I don't agree that the kind of cars we are talking about do necessarily pollute more, you have to bear in mind that cars are significantly cleaner now than they were 20 years ago and they are improving all the time.
Compared to their counterparts 20 years ago, cars are 90 per cent cleaner. If we are talking about polluting more, how come all these pollution taxes always fall on the driver, for example people who use central heating use twice as much CO2 in this country as private cars.
Murthy: OK David Begg why have we got to hit drivers?
Begg: Transport is the fastest growing contributor to climate change and the Government's chief scientific officer has made it clear that climate change is a much much bigger threat to mankind than terrorism is and in the last couple of years we have seen no improvement in the fuel efficiency of cars.
Cars are getting bigger, they are more fuel hungry and we haven't been making the progress.
Murthy: Mr Vickers, what impact would a £900 car tax have on car users, will people stop using them?
Vickers: I think it would to be perfectly honest. The fact is that people who use larger cars actually do need them, I know there is this myth that people buy big cars just to show off but once again a tax like this is going to effect people with big families, farmers, people who need to pull trailers, rural communities all kinds of people who have little choice but to drive larger vehicles.
If we are going to have some kind of tax let it least reflect the amount the car is used.
Murthy: Do you think £900 is going to be enough to get people out of the car?
Begg: It's a step in the right direction, I mean there is no doubt that the differentiation in the vehicle excise duty between a small car and a large car is too small at present, but that on its own is not going to be enough because as long as incomes are rising, people will want to buy larger and larger cars, most of the time these cars only have one person in them.
It's an incredibly inefficient use of space and of fuel if we are really serious about trying to tackle climate change, we've got to look closely at behaviour in terms of consuming fuel.
Murthy: If £900 is only a first step, what would you have to do to really seriously change behaviour?
Begg: I suspect that the increase in the cost of a barrel of oil is going to start to bite. Even though people are saying that motoring is too expensive, people's behaviour tells us otherwise, people are driving further with larger cars and car occupancy is falling.
What we would expect to see happening is car occupancy starting to rise and people starting to adjust their behaviour, I suspect that will only start to really happen when the price of a barrel of oil is up to $100 and I suspect the market will do what politicians are frightened to do.
I don't blame the politicians; I blame the public who don't seem too concerned about climate change. I think it will only take a major catastrophe, when a city is wiped out by flooding that public will sit up and say to politicians: 'Why haven't we taken this issue more seriously?'
If the Prime Minister does want to put environmental issues at the heart of his third term, he has to look closely at climate change.
Murthy: You don't actually care as much about climate change as you do about your right to drive?
Vickers: This is totally untrue, this is the problem we have had people like David Begg who is effectively a social engineer who arrogantly assumes he knows best what is for everybody. He is making claims about the environment which are largely unfounded, that cars are causing serious climate change.
Murthy: That's unfounded?
Vickers: It is certainly not proven to the degree he would like us to believe it is, there are still many scientists who believe that global warming, if it exists at all is not necessarily man-made. If he is really serious then look at people who use central heating or flatulent cows. There are considerably more of a threat to the climate.
Murthy: So David Begg, you are apparently peddling unproven science.
Begg: It's not me; it's the Governments own scientific officer who's told us this is a serious threat to our future. The big offender to climate change is transport and there are two culprits. one is the internal combustion engine, the car and the other is aviation.
